in which i obtain a divorce from god

[iceinyourmusic]

As of 14:21 this afternoon, I've been living (as the church website informs me) "in excommunication", "outside a visible bond to the church and its sacraments", for the first time in over a quarter of a century. And it's been far too long in the making, but - I didn't know it would feel this frightening.

Says the lady at the church office: "You're welcome back when you change your mind."
Says I: "Thank you."

Then I went for a ceremonial cup of coffee. Think I'll go for another one now.

or twelve

Comments

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

Were you a nun? If not, can you not just walk away and be "lapsed", rather than "excommunicated"? I thought you had to do something really dreadful to be excommunicated.

[leksa.livejournal.com]

If not, can you not just walk away and be "lapsed", rather than "excommunicated"?

Actually, I pretty much thought that "excommunication" wasn't even in the Lutheran vocabulary, but -

Kirkosta eronnut elää ekskommunikaation tilassa eli näkyvän kirkollisen yhteyden ja sakramenttiyhteyden ulkopuolella.

- which, my translation is undoubtedly utterly imperfect in the dynamically equivalent sense, but word-for-word-li-ly, "A person who has left the church lives in a state of excommunication i.e. outside the visible churchly connection and the sacramental connection."

Oh, the terminology, it makes me sound so naughty! ;)

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

So much easier in English. You don't announce it to anyone; you just turn up less and less often, until finally you don't even go at Christmas and Easter anymore. :-)

[leksa.livejournal.com]

Dude, yeah. We of the state church(es) live in a different world. :)

(Here the formality also has to do with 1) whether or not you pay the church taxes and 2) who's in charge of keeping you all registered up (the church or the magistrate) and 3) whether you can be married in a church ceremony, whether you can be an official godparent, etc.)

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

Church and state not separate where you live? Wow!

[leksa.livejournal.com]

Nope - and Sweden is the same, and quite possibly all the Nordic countries, but I may be wrong. (I think we're the only ones to have two state churches, though, the Lutheran and the Greek Orthodox - though, again, I may be wrong about that.)

And it is curious in a number of ways, because at the same time we have such an utterly utterly secular society, compared to some state-church-less countries, and it makes funny things happen, like. [Once again, I may be talking completely out of my ass, here, but] the President gets these quasi-churchly duties, and the current President, iirc, was actually not a member before the election.

[leksa.livejournal.com]

(actually - i'm just flooding your mailbox here, aren't i? - i think sweden was the same, but isn't any more. shame on me.)

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

Flooding my mailbox is fine! Makes me feel popular! :-)

[karintheswede]

I do think that you still have to tell them if you don't want your children to be members, though.

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

Ah, the pretty assumptions I live under...

[lockergirl.livejournal.com]

Wow, I didn't know this!

My brother had his name erased from the 'batism list', so to speak. But it had nothing to do with the reasons you stated above, and all with his truly extreme atheist views. I consider myself an atheist as well, but I never went that far.

[leksa.livejournal.com]

Actually, my grounds for leaving the church were strictly religious (or non-religious, as it were) as well - the tax etc. issues are more like side-effects. (Though I will still continue to consider myself baptized. :))

[leksa.livejournal.com]

(And, also! this being purely word-play, but, intuitively, I'd say one could be "lapsed" while still formally a member of the church - it sounds less technical to me. hmmm.)

[xoverau.livejournal.com]

Wow.

*pours the coffee*

[leksa.livejournal.com]

why, thank you. :)

[karintheswede]

Congratulations! Haven't taken that step myself, but that's because so much of my musical life is bound to the church, so I might as well pay the .08% of my salary that goes to the church.

[leksa.livejournal.com]

whee!

I didn't mind the tax, actually (that is, while I for the general separation of church and state, there is this strangely deeply rooted belief in the church's position as a part of our culture in me, and I'm all for supporting the culture :)) - like I said to Tine above, I'm just the anally-neurotic-about-religious-matters agnostic eVAH, so I've long been in all sorts of Intense Ethical Crises over remaining a member when I wasn't buying what they were selling. (Which, disclaimercakes, I'm not saying that people who belong to the church just because they want a church wedding OMG some day don't have every right to do that, if it makes them happy. :))

[leksa.livejournal.com]

right. some words missing from that. la-de-da.

[karintheswede]

I got the gist of it.

as for the religion thing, well, then I'm completely lapsed. Baptised and confirmed, but agnostic. Or at least sceptic. But then I am deeply sceptical to most things.

[lise-lise.livejournal.com]

On the whole scepsis is not a bad thing :-)

But as I was giving as example to someone earlier this week, two theories I was most sceptical about at university, were exactly the two exams I had to resit. I then lowered myself and passed.